that's how you can raise tax revenue without raising tax rates. although technically that goes against grover norquist's pledge. >> well, we've already put a plan out in the budget committee. as you said, i am a part of that budget committee. and we put out the fundamentals of that, where we would have a plan where we would have pro-growth tax reform, and that means something fairer, flatter and simpler, and a portion of that is to look at the deductions that right now really do benefit those in the upper income, and that we're willing to look at those, and to make sure that what we do does bring in more revenue by robust economy. >> and it wouldn't be a violation of a sort of a marriage vow to grover norquist. he has said that violating his pledge is somehow akin to, you know, violating your marriage vows. you don't -- your deal is with your constituents, not with grover norquist? >> that's right. that's exactly right. >> i want to talk a little bit about the debt ceiling because this is coming into play here. grover norquist, again, has written